What Breaks First, Episode 6: Rohit Bhadange (Co-Founder & CEO, Zamp) with Ian Myers (Founder & CEO, Oceans Talent)

[00:00] Rohit Bhadange (cold open):
whether I was in PE, whether I was in venture, I mean, we probably passed on over 98% of deals that came across our desk, which nobody really talks about.

[00:09] Ian Myers:
Hey, what's up? I'm here with Rohit, founder and CEO of Zamp. Before we get started, do you want to give a little bit of a self-introduction, company introduction? So give us a brief.

[00:21] Rohit Bhadange:
Yeah, for sure. Thanks for having me, Ian. Quick intro on me. Some of you guys know me, Rohit Bhadange, co-founder, CEO of Zamp. Zamp is a operating system of sales tax. We provide a fully managed sales tax service for retail tech services businesses. And the goal is to combine AI native platform with real tax professionals to deliver end-to-end compliance to our customers and partners. Before Zamp, I spent a lot of my time in the financial services space across investment banking, private equity, venture. Also started working in a family office where I helped start a few different companies. And so that's a little bit of background on myself. Is there anything that you think we should drill into first?

[01:06] Ian Myers:
Yeah, I mean, I would love to hear there's I similarly add a background in banking and then venture capital. And I was always like, oh man, looks like the operators are having all the fun. Like it's nice to have these chats and it's nice to wire the money. But like what, why don't I do something? I'm young, I'm interested. I'm like, I want to spend my energy somewhere. Was it, was it similar for you? What was behind the decision of moving from finance to operator building a business?

[01:39] Rohit Bhadange:
I feel like it's always the grass is always greener on the other side mentality where you see like the 1% of the 1% absolutely crushing it and having a ton of success. And you're like, well, that looks pretty easy. And as an investor, a lot of times you're investing in the 1%. You're passing on so many deals. Even whether I was in PE, whether I was in venture, I mean, we probably passed on over 98% of deals that came across our desk, which nobody really talks about. Right. And I think for me specifically, well, the beauty of this is when you see the 1% of the 1%, you feel like you can do it. And it's a lot of times, like when you're a kid, you, you, you start playing a sport, you start doing a hobby and you start getting better and you start getting better and you refine that craft because you think you can be the best. If you go into this mentality thinking you're never going to be the best, you're never going to really start. And I think in some ways, like being on the venture investing side helps have that mindset of, yeah, like I can get there. I'm better than them. Or I see some of the qualities that they have in me as well. And this was a time when Wayfair, which is kind of this, you know, the ruling that happened around sales tax that started taxing digital companies came around. And we, when we were buying companies and you probably know this, like you do a QoE and you get these like consultants to come in and make sure the numbers tie and make sure that there's not liabilities that you've missed. And we just started seeing liabilities with sales tax all over the board. And so what ended up happening was then, you know, you'd be like at the one yard line of the sale, this thing comes back founder or management team's not going to say, no, we're not going to sell this thing. What ends up happening is EBITDA price potentially goes down, which drives the purchase price down, which means the people that get paid out that investors and whoever else get paid out less. But again, it's like 10, 20%. Is it going to matter? Like, are they going to change the decision? No, but somebody is going to have to deal with it. And then the employees that are often at these companies, they own a fraction of the company. And so their payouts maybe go from a million dollars to like 200 K or whatever. Right. That's not a great place to be because now you are going to have this potentially outsized outcome. And because you didn't manage your own shit, like you couldn't do it, but

[03:53] Ian Myers:
adjustments just based on sales tax or you're talking about everything, all the problems uncovered during the diligence process.

[04:01] Rohit Bhadange:
I think a lot of the problems we uncovered during diligence were pretty much addressed. I think specific to the QoE, a lot of these issues that I saw around starting in 2018 or around sales tax, it's just companies that were supposed to collect that didn't were undercollecting needed to just ask, get money from their customers to pay the States, things like that. And then I went into venture and a lot of the early deals that we worked with, I mean, you saw this at the large companies, which you didn't really expect, but then at the smaller levels, I mean, being a venture investor, you're investing in a bunch of companies and you're trying to add value. When we're investing pre seed, seed stage series a like companies are coming to us and saying, Hey, like, can you help with these things? Like, you know, you'd get this email and they'd often give you a monthly update and here's like the things you can help with. So this was before AI was a thing. I built a scraper on all of my emails to just give me an idea of, Hey, like, where can I add real leverage? Because I'm one person across like hundreds of companies. And one of the themes that kept coming up was sales tax. Like, like,

[05:04] Ian Myers:
what are you possibly doing that you're not paying your taxes? What a good government boy you are, Rohit, that's great.

[05:12] Rohit Bhadange:
But I think as you peel the onion back, you're like, you realize, okay, this is a lot harder than it actually seems.

[05:18] Ian Myers:
Notoriously states, all the different states, they make it so easy to pay taxes all the time. You know, that's, I think that's famously, I still sometimes as like so much confusion around this state, that state, this rule, that rule, I got us file this here. This has to be sent wet signed with paper. This one I can upload online directly. This one, I can't upload online, but I can scan a physical copy and I can send that in, you know, there's like so much going on. It's no wonder that you, you were like, wow, this is a big problem

[05:49] Rohit Bhadange:
thousand percent. And I think the lot of the vendors out there at the time they were giving you tools, but then you kind of had to manage the process. The problem is like these early stage companies, not even early stage up until like fortune 500. Even nobody goes to school for sales tax to go to school for accounting. And that's very different. And what we heard time and time again was people just want somebody to do the whole thing. They want the platform and then they want the services and they're like, you just do it all for me. They don't want to understand sales tax. They don't, they don't know sales tax. Sales tax falls into this bucket of like necessary non-value creating bucket, which often ends up in like people that are usually upset and pissed off and acute problems. And, and, you know, it's like you're, you're constantly in the ER. And I, so for me, like I saw that problem. I thought it was complex. I, I like working those situations. I don't know. Maybe it's cause I miss when I was getting yelled at by my MD in banking that I wanted to work with customers that constantly yell at me.

[06:47] Ian Myers:
You just didn't feel comfortable with people were just sort of gently speaking nicely to you.

[06:51] Rohit Bhadange:
Yeah. Sometimes I ask myself like, do I just like pain?

[06:58] Ian Myers:
Well, I can tell you absolutely. You started a company, you raised venture money. There's no question in my mind that that's something you're fond of. It's okay. That's why we're all here.

[07:08] Rohit Bhadange:
So that's, that's kind of the Genesis. That was the business model. Now we're, but like, but like 40 months in now with the product and service being live and we're, you know, eight figures in ARR. We are providing a service with software like margins, which is freaking awesome. Growing to triple digits. I think now we we've remitted about half a billion dollars in sales tax to the government accurately on time. So I think net net. Yeah. It seems like people actually want what we're providing, which is a good feeling.

[07:41] Ian Myers:
Yeah. Well, so you're in a good place now. There's a couple of things I want to go wind it back to as you were getting off the ground. I think that's like the sprint to, Oh, it's a real business that's making money. And I kind of like, that's, that's the first stage of, I did it. The second stage of I did it is, you know, it's scaling really well in the way I want it. And the third stage of I did it is having the outcome that you and your investors want to achieve. Right. But before you get to the first, I did it stage of, Oh, it's a real business. I'm making money. People want my product. There's a lot that goes on before that. So tell me through, like in the earlier days we were launching the company one coming from being an investor, looking outside into building a business. What like, what, what was shocking? What was different than what you thought? Where did you think you were going to be excellent? That you maybe weren't where, where were you excellent that you maybe thought you weren't going to be. And then also like, like what was the, what was the number one panic moment you had while, while scaling? Those are my two biggest questions.

[08:44] Rohit Bhadange:
So, I mean, there's a lot to unpack there. I think I'll take it. I'll kind of answer a couple of things that come straight to mind. I, number one, when, when you're working in wall street, it's, it's, it's a people business, but it's not really a people business. Like people kind of treat you any way that they want to. They're not,

[09:03] Ian Myers:
they're not really people. They're something else entirely, right?

[09:07] Rohit Bhadange:
But, but when you're in it for almost like a decade, you're like, you're kind of just, you're just numb to that. And even like I went to Penn for school and it's a very, it's like a relatively cutthroat environment and you have friends, but everybody's graded on a curve and you know, you don't want to, you want to help your friends, but not too much because that means your, your grade is going to get a little bit lower. And so I kind of grew up in this environment since I was 17. And I think the most biggest learning for me has been, this is whether you're providing technology, whether you're, whatever you're doing, it's a people business. And you, I think the part that I've, I've been focusing a lot on myself is how to talk to different kinds of people, how to empower people and not just tell them what to do, how to get real leverage in what you're doing, how to hear people's perspectives and like actually listen to them and realize that, Hey, like you may not actually know all the right answers. And I think that part is pretty humbling realizing that, well, yeah, not everybody's going to like you. And I think threading that balance between like being highly empathetic, but also understanding that if I don't make this decision, this is actually impacting more people negatively by me not making this decision. So like, it's funny, I get chills thinking about it because the person who I was when I first started Zamp versus like who I am, I'd say is very different. And so I think that, and like we can trail deeper on that, but I'd say like thematically, that's probably one area that I've definitely made my fair share of mistakes or just had a bunch of learnings. And then I'd say the second piece that people don't talk about enough is just like prioritization and trade-offs. I think when you're like an investor, you're like running the same playbook every time. And yeah, there's nuances, but you got your executive summary, you got like, okay, I'm going to put together evaluations. I'm going to put together highlights. I'm going to put together like risks and mitigants. It's like cookie cutter, run this thing back every time. And yeah, you need to do some industry research, but I mean, there is a saying like you could teach like a monkey to do what they do on wall street. And I don't now don't think that's actually a lot, especially with Neuralink and all these companies. I think that the amount of different work you could possibly do when you're an operator, especially when you're just starting out, there's like a thousand things you could possibly doing. Do I want to go talk to customers? Do I spend like 30 hours a week talking to like just my product team? Or do I spend like 10 hours a week also doing recruiting and then maybe work with the recruiter, maybe not like, how do I think about making sure that people are communicating correctly or how do I make sure that people are on task? Like how much do we invest in tools versus not? I mean, there's like so many of these like micro decisions that you kind of have to make that it, that like, you know, it's funny, I'm at this point in my life, right? Where I try to ask my wife to make most of my decisions at home because I'm, I'm making some like constantly making decisions at work. I get like decision fatigue sometimes. Yeah,

[12:31] Ian Myers:
absolutely.

[12:32] Rohit Bhadange:
And that's something I'd say people don't talk about enough is it's not so much like the decisions are always hard and like a stand state. And that's why when you're an investor, you're just looking at it like, okay, here's like, I see the, I see the, the, the through this glass pane and I'm getting one perspective and I can make this decision. But when you're, it's kind of like context switching, you're just like context switching every like five minutes and you're just like, okay, like rapid decision making 24/7 because if you stop, you're just not iterating. And now you're just holding up the train. And I think then you've got to balance, okay, how much do I stop versus how much do I just pounce on this and move fast? And then you have like Twitter kind of telling you one thing and then you read LinkedIn posts, you got someone else telling you another thing, you got investors and board and friends and you're like, yep. You're like, dude, this is actually kind of cool.

[13:24] Ian Myers:
Okay, so just to recap, you're sort of viewing the world outside like me and through one lens and you sort of can easily make a yes/no decision with a limited amount of like your job is to make yes/no decisions with a limited amount of information. And I think that the consequences of a no or a bad decision are like, if you pass on a huge company, it's not actually going to negatively impact you all that much as long as like, because there's constantly new ones coming along, as long as you make the next one, the right choice, you're sort of in a good position. But if you're inside of it, a thousand different decisions all the time, different contexts of bird is constantly being made. It's exhausting. I completely agree. It's a different kind of exhausting, like decision making versus like making a model or like, yeah, you can be up late making a pitch deck or something like that. Sure. But it's it's very different, I think, from making 100 different decisions and from people looking to you to make 100 different decisions every single day. So I totally, I totally get that, totally agree with it. And so then you've jumped from Wall Street, you started this company, it's a little bit harder than you thought it was going to be. But things are going well, you've raised some money, you've got kind of a clear eyed picture of what you need to do. What what were the big things that went wrong early on and what kind of freaked you out the most as you were on this path?

[14:44] Rohit Bhadange:
I think the first thing that any founder hears or anybody that's starting a company that hasn't been in like an operator's seat or at a company before, I'd say you often hear this thing of like and maybe it's not true anymore, but call it like five years ago or 10 years ago was it's there's a couple things, you know, move fast, break things, mentality. And then and I think when we were kind of getting started, there was this whole like mentality around like working seven days a week, otherwise you're toast mentality. And as somebody that comes from Wall Street, I have no issues with the the working part because I'm every day I wake up and I'm just grateful to be doing what I'm doing because I know how I don't know, I know what the pits of despair feel like, I guess. I mean, don't get

[15:33] Ian Myers:
to move past that one quickly. Because the pits of despair, not really in the runner show for today, but that's all right. got trapped in the pits of despair that as you're scaling, you've got it, you've got you know, you sort of have a direction, I think early on is finding a direction. Take me to the time when you had the direction you knew you wanted to build, you started building it. And then of course, as they always do, things went wrong. Mostly I'm guessing operationally, what were those what were those early things that kind of freaked you out and maybe even made you think like, Oh, did I should I have done this?

[16:06] Rohit Bhadange:
A lot. So actually, it's interesting, because a lot of it when we started this thing, I hired people that were better than me at what they did, they were from the space. So from like a customer delivery perspective, generally, we were always in a really good spot because we needed to have that dialed in because this was like an unforgivable space where you make a mistake, you're screwed. For me, a lot of my learnings have been on the more on the people side, because, like I said, coming from Wall Street, you're getting micromanaged and you're working a lot. And when you're I think the mistake that I made was trying to try to a make decisions for people trying to, you know, micromanage people to their outcomes, especially when these people are already good and they're operators, and they know what they're doing. And they kind of feel like, well, why am I getting micromanaged by this kid that, you know, is like 15-20 years younger than me, that maybe or maybe maybe doesn't really know what he's doing or hasn't done this before. And I think if you want people that are real heavy hitters that have seen success and exited companies, and you need to give them the space to operate, but finding that balance between giving them the space to operate and making sure that you're not being too invasive where you can get the answers you need to run the company. So that balance, I think I spent a lot of like one of my biggest learnings was not micromanaging people too intensely, especially ones that have been in the operating seat. And I think how that manifested was it just created frustration. I think it hurt my trust with my team members at times because they were like, well, why did you hire me? Did you not trust me? And it's a very fair thing to say. Or it would be like, is this the kind of culture we want to build here? So I had to do a better job just being intentional about my communication, like how I'm positioning things, making sure that I'm, you know, just giving people room to operate.

[18:03] Ian Myers:
I mean, management of capital is very different and very much more, I think, simple than in a lot of ways, management of people. And I think, yeah, we hear, we hear, of course, a lot motivation. How do you get people excited? And then how do you deal with being in charge for not being the expert? I think that's kind of like a very difficult, really difficult thing when people just jump into an industry that, but honestly, that's how I felt when I was in finance at the moment. I remember the moment that I decided I wanted to start a company instead of working in venture. And it was this guy was coming to pitch me. I was like an associate, you know, I was nobody. And I had never had a real job. I just worked in banking and then venture. This guy was like a 20 year veteran in the drone space. He didn't like building drones before drones were a thing. And he's like pitching me on this company. And I sat there thinking to myself, how could I possibly know whether this is a good idea? How could I possibly know? This guy spent 20 years in this industry. And yet I'm the one sitting here being like, yeah, I guess it's good enough for money or not good enough for money. Like I can't possibly know that. So I should get some experience in at least knowing how to build a company before I can sit there being like yes or no. So that was the moment for me. And I also, I struggled in the same way you did that like, man, people are people are really, really difficult, which, but they can also you know, are obviously the most integral part of building any business. So before you know, in the green room before we came on, you were talking about a little bit the important role that people still play even in an AI forward world, your business is obviously a combination of people and AI. So why do you think people still have a role? What is it, you know, what is it that the relationship between the AI that you have and the people you have looks like inside your company? And why are you continuing on that track?

[20:00] Rohit Bhadange:
So from our perspective, I feel like in our space, we provide a managed service to an end customer. And because we're providing a service to an end customer, there is always some level of client relations that has to happen. And there's always this like dimension of humans are humans. And so not everything is always going to be perfect. So having humans in the loop to make sure that they're understanding others becomes really important. I think those are two distinct pieces. But in a profession where there just aren't accountants entering the space, and tax is getting more complex. The only option here is to use technology to help automate some of these, I'd say like some of these service functions to be able to give other people leverage either that or we're just burning people out like we're going to be burning out accountants and we're never going to have accountants. And then I don't know how the world would actually exactly function. In our space, one of the things that I focus a lot on is we make sure to hire the best people because the best people they both know how to manage client relations. They also know the edge cases. They also understand like how to troubleshoot errors, but they also know the work, the 80% of the work that many of their colleagues previously could do, whether they were great or not great. I think the goal is how do we automate this 80% of work so that our team can focus on the top 20%, 10, 20% of work. That's extremely high leverage. Maybe there's, you know, there's an audit happening for one of our customers. Our system has said, you know, stated something, provided some kind of determination, customer disagrees or auditor disagrees instead of like this customer going back and forth with the AI, like the agent. I mean, that's super frustrating. Putting our people in front of the customer to say, hey, let me walk you through exactly how this happened. And yeah, we might be using technology to do that, but having somebody that comes from this background 10, 15, 20 years to say, hey, let me put your mind at ease because at the end of the day, humans put humans at ease. Technology helps humans put humans at ease. And that's the way that I think about it. And so if we don't give leverage in our space, the work may or may not get done anymore, which would be bad for businesses as governments will start trying to eat off of that. Number two, if I don't hire the best people, then the work that's being done by our technology will not necessarily be trusted. And to me, again, like in our space and financial services, the currency is trust. So that's how I think about people in our business specifically. I think that they're integral. I think in any AI business, you have to have somebody that can manage the escalations, manage the errors, manage the higher level tasks or the higher level problems or even the client services piece. And that piece will be extremely difficult to automate. But who succeeds in this round? It's the best of the best. And so I'd say it elevates the standards of people and service because you kind of have to rise up to this challenge to be the best. That's how I think about it. I think the cool thing here has been, and we talked about this initially, there's so many decisions that I often need to make. But working with you guys, having somebody like Amy from the Oceans team help get me leverage on some of the other decisions, like internal operation decisions. So I can focus on product ideas, product decisions, operational decisions. Things that give me a lot of leverage has been extremely helpful. And I think of anybody that I've worked with, she's easily in top one percent. And she's freaking awesome. I can't say enough good things.

[24:00] Ian Myers:
You're talking about leverage. Like basically, playing back what you said that AI is giving leverage to top performers, top performers still need to exist for a variety of reasons, but especially in services businesses. And obviously we're a service business. I see that all the time. People still get prickly if they try to call a restaurant to reserve, make a reservation and they get an AI who won't like understand what they're trying to say or whatever, which happened to me last week.

[24:27] Rohit Bhadange:
Just connecting with an agent, zero, zero, zero, zero.

[24:29] Ian Myers:
Yeah, please. Like you don't understand the concept of being 15 minutes late and still getting to keep my reservation because I'm stuck in traffic. Like, I'm sorry you don't get what that is. Please put me on the phone with someone who does. So obvious limitations. But in terms of getting leverage for you from Amy and from working with with someone from our team, what are the like day to day things that you feel are most accomplished by having someone like that support you? Like what are the things that come to mind that are like, wow, I'm really glad this is getting done?

[25:03] Rohit Bhadange:
I think whenever I think about the things that I need to get done throughout the day, there's probably like 100 decisions that I can make in any given day. Then I think it goes back to my earlier point on prioritization. How many of these decisions do I think I could really effectively make through the day? Maybe like five to 10 realistically. OK, if I can find somebody that I really trust where I again, it goes back to delegation. I'm only going to delegate once I trust you. And if you earn my trust quickly, I'll start delegating more things. And now if I can delegate things that are on the call at the bottom 20, 30 that still need me involved, but I trust this person to understand to understand me and to understand how I think now I've kind of reduced that stack on a day to day basis. More decisions are getting made. The company is pushing forward faster. They it's it's just this like iterative mindset. And it allows me to stay focused on the five to 10 that are the most important, because usually what ends up happening is one of these decisions at like number 80, two weeks down the line will say, hey, like we got to get you know, we got to book this this offsite dinner for X, Y, Z. And I'll be like, why don't you just book it or like what? And then I'm like, I do that. Then they might not take a good restaurant. They might not understand the ambiance that I'm going for. And I think there's all these like nuances that sometimes get lost. And so where Amy helps me a lot is in she understands my taste. She understands the speed at which I move at. She understands that I am a very AI first, AI forward person. Like I want you to look things up. I want you to try things first. Come to me with like a few solutions and then let's talk about those solutions together. I think from a DNA perspective, like I think she just gets me and now she's at a point where she asks when I ask a question, she's already thought about like the two, three questions I've asked and and and then she's already made a decision that she expected that I would probably make. And again, like I think being focused is important. Her focus is largely on internal operations. So this is like anything to do with things like our onboarding process. How do we make that better for people, especially when they're coming from non-sales tax industries? How do we ramp them faster? How do we make sure we make people feel normal?

[27:26] Ian Myers:
You mean how do you Zamp them faster?

[27:28] Rohit Bhadange:
Exactly. How do we Zamp them faster?

[27:31] Ian Myers:
There you go. It will

[27:33] Rohit Bhadange:
be things like she'll set up schedules for all hands calls and make sure she's talking to everybody and communicating and make sure that happens. She actually organized our entire offsite this year for like 60, 70 people. Make sure she's talking to all the restaurants, make sure she's communicating with all of our staff, getting their hotels booked, you know, like all this logistical stuff that actually, ironically, I was doing some of that before as well. And I think even just from even just from like employee experience perspective, she spends a lot of time thinking about that because, again, her strength, she's really empathetic, a lot more empathetic than I am. But she moves. She moves at my speed and like has my DNA. So when you combine both of those things, the outcomes are better because now to your point, it's like I'm I can't be the expert in the room on everything. And I'd say she's the expert when it comes to a lot of our internal operations. But she's earned that trust over time. And, you know, I operate on Signal. She starts getting things. I continue asking her, hey, like, where do you want to spend your time? What do you want to do? So people, I think that's where she's giving me a lot of leverage and we're making more decisions. And again, it's a people business. I want to make sure we keep our team happy. They feel valued. They, you know, they're getting the support they deserve.

[29:02] Ian Myers:
You are obviously growing quickly. You're talking about internal operations. You're talking about how that's all coming together. What is like one thing on your mind right now in terms of scaling where, you know, you've got a process that's not working or that sorry that is working, but is not going to work as you continue to grow. Like what's an example of the things to look out for when you're at your stage at eight figures there are growing pretty quickly. Like what's the thing in your mind that's like, I know this is working now, but I'm pretty concerned we're going to have to overhaul this later. It can be anything can be team structures. It can be technology. It can be product. It can be whatever. Oh,

[29:40] Rohit Bhadange:
it's interesting. One of the things that I just brought up, it was is the most important thing when I hire people is I want to hire A players. These are people that are proactive, that are intentional, that are gritty, that don't really care if they're the smartest person in the room. But like, I think these qualities are essential and they're just curious. But what that often means is that like they may or may not know sales tax. And a lot of the things that I think about is time to value. What is our time of value to our customer? How do we drive time to value to our partners? How do we drive, you know, how do we help make sure somebody is productive as like faster in our organization? Because I'd say like if someone can't be productive for six months, that's that's an organizational issue because that's I'd say I have to share that responsibility because I haven't set this person up for success. Or maybe there are things that I could have done. When you're a small team, you're just in rooms together all the time. You're talking all the time. We hire people that were in the space before. So you just hear through osmosis. And that's how I learned sales tax fast. The challenge, though, is like now we're getting into this world of I the most important thing to me is A players. And so how do I make sure my A players like get the right resources they need to to be most productive as fast as possible? And so a lot of what I'm trying to focus on is what does that mean? What do I like? Do I have that instead of it taking six months to ramp somebody on sales tax? How do I get this down to like two months or one month? Do I have them go through like an onboarding flow of a customer and do like a sample filing import data? Like do I actually have them do the work for a couple of weeks so that they they like can tangibly feel the pain points? Do I have them talk to customers? Do I you know, do I do like on demand training sessions? Or do we do live training sessions? I think fortunately, I guess, like for us on the operations side from the business, we have people that have done it before and scaled into the nine figures range. So the the 10 to 100 million journey, it's not always the same. But we I'd say like, we understand some of those nuances and are iterating. And I say that now. And then I'll look six months, 12 months back and be like, I can't believe we thought we knew what we're doing, which happens every time. But this part is the thing that I'm most focused on is we're hiring a bunch of people. How do I ramp them faster? Because the faster I ramp down, the bigger impact that can happen. And I think for us, the thing that's been most important is, man, when you're talking to a finance person, professional accounting professional, and you don't know tax, whether you're on a customer facing team, onboarding account management, tech, tech support sales, partnerships, and you don't know tax, again, the currency in our market is trust. Like you're already you're playing from a handicap right there. Right?

[32:31] Ian Myers:
I can also confidently say that we have gone through the exact same journey as we iterate over time, I can also confidently say that you are going to do spectacularly having known you for a while now and that a few bumps in the road are going to be nothing on your way to 100 million. So I am very excited to see it. And I very much appreciate you coming on today, Rohit.

[32:50] Rohit Bhadange:
Appreciate you having me.